Thursday, August 24, 2006

Peace?

I’ve come across three articles that give perspective to the recent conflict between Israel and Hizb Allah, and how this conflict ties into a recent peace initiative between the Palestinians and Israel:

1.article by Nafeez Mosaddeq Ahmed.
2.article by Arthur Neslen.
3.article and a second by Arthur Neslen.

It’s interesting to note that the last prisoner exchange between Hizb Allah and Israel took place, when Sharon was functioning as prime minister of Israel in 2004, using German mediation. Moreover, there was no overt hostilities, such as a military campaign in 2004.

After reading these three articles, it seems that the Olmert government decided to go to “war” with Hizb Allah to hinder this new peace initiative that would have returned the captured IDF soldier in Gaza and kick started talks for a broader Palestinian-Israeli peace.

The worst part is, all the unnecessary death and destruction in Gaza, Israel, and Lebanon could have been avoided…

17 comments:

  1. Teapot8:42 AM

    How you can twist reality? That is a real gift u have.
    There was no peace process. Olmert was elected to finish the unilateral pullout from the west bank. 2 weeks before the Hezbollah attack on Israel, Hamas attacked killed and kidnapped a soldier. What would any sane Prime Minister would do? sit back and take it from both ends?
    Don't delude yourself to think that Lebanon could have avoided war with all the IRANIAN weapons Hezbollah had (Rockets, ZilZal and so on) You know it was just a matter of time until Iran gave them the order to attack.
    Don't be naive Nassim, This is not the time. The only way this "could have been avoided" is if Lebanon disarmed Hezbollah.

    Consider this: A few weeks before the kidnapping of Gilad Shalit Abbas and Olmert met in Jordan to continue talks. So it is the ARABS who destroy any chance of peace.
    Link: http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3266017,00.html

    But why do I expect Arabs to take responsibility for their actions?

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  2. Liliane9:20 AM

    Well no body denies that a war could've been avoided if Lebanon had disarmed Hezbollah!

    But you know, it is know that in any fight, there not just one side to blame! And am sorry to tell you, Israel is as much to blame as Hezbollah!

    So please don't make it sound like Israel is a little girl who was just defending herself!

    If there was no Israel, there would have been no war either! It's time for everyone to grow up and stop throwing blames at each other.

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  3. Teapot9:51 AM

    Liliane said... "Well no body denies that a war couldve been avoided if Lebanon had disarmed Hezbollah!"

    Nassim was denying that, did u actually read his post, are was it a knee jerk reaction on your part?

    There is ONE SIDE to blame! u yourself acknowledge that if Lebanon disarmed hizballa this would not have happened.

    Don't compare Israels democratic Gov with dictatorial Arab and Iranian regimes. Its not about "throwing blames at each other", IT IS about making Arabs understand they have to take RESPOSIBILTY for their own actions.
    Oh, and the soldiers are still in Hizballah's hands. (Israel already released Lebanese that were captured).

    Liliane, to sum up, ur response was very shallow.

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  4. How you can twist reality? That is a real gift u have.

    I take it you did not read the articles or did not read them carefully enough treapot. I made a simple observation from a set of articles related to an initiative that was born from the cooperation of Palestinians and Israelis that sought to return the captured Israeli soldier in Gaza in exchange for some Palestinian prisoners.

    By simply observing the participants of both factions and their credibility, the IDF soldier would’ve been returned, AND this exchange would have laid the foundation for the establishment of trust that could lead to future negotiations between Israel and the Palestinians.

    Concerning Hizb Allah, I’m sure Sharon’s rich and bloody war experience in Lebanon had a pivotal role in not engaging Hizb Allah in 2004, since he opted for covert negotiations using German mediation to return the captured Israeli soldiers.

    There was no peace process. Olmert was elected to finish the unilateral pullout from the west bank. 2 weeks before the Hezbollah attack on Israel, Hamas attacked killed and kidnapped a soldier. What would any sane Prime Minister would do? sit back and take it from both ends?

    So Israel is an angel? That is laughable and totally naïve on your part. Don’t forget that Israel is an unjust occupier and treats the people it occupies inhumanly. Moreover, from the UN charter:

    "Occupied people have the right to resist the occupation itself, as well as the specific illegal practices of the occupier."

    Article 1(4) of Protocol I (additional to the Geneva Conventions) considers self-determination struggles in the context of international armed conflicts: the principle of self determination itself provides that where forcible action has been taken to suppress the right, force may be used in order achieve self determination.

    Recall UN resolution 242?

    Don't delude yourself to think that Lebanon could have avoided war with all the IRANIAN weapons Hezbollah had (Rockets, ZilZal and so on) You know it was just a matter of time until Iran gave them the order to attack.
    Don't be naive Nassim, This is not the time. The only way this "could have been avoided" is if Lebanon disarmed Hezbollah.


    Concerning Lebanon-Israel crisis, sure it could have avoided if the leaders of Israel are sincerely interested in a just peace.(i.e. the return of the shebaa farms, the return of all Lebanese prisoners, recall the ones from the 70s and 80s??). Instead, they invade, murder, occupy, plunder, and destroy everything in their path. Basically, if there was any hope for peace, the Israelis just flushed it down the toilet with their army and thirst for blood.

    Concerning Iranian weapons, I see no problem with Hizb Allah obtaining them since America supplies Israel with weapons of mass destruction: nukes, cluster bombs, napalm bombs… etc. Why should Israel be the only faction with these privileges of mass destruction?

    Furthermore, do not forget that Hizb Allah was created as a result of the murderous Israeli invasion and occupation of south Lebanon. All they want are their family members, friends, and compatriots who were abducted by the IDF and are rotting in Israeli jails, in addition to the return of the Shebba farms. Now, if Israel was to return the prisoners and the Shebba farms, then Hizb Allah’s, military wing will have no absolute use and will most likely disband, which is totally a different discussion.


    Consider this: A few weeks before the kidnapping of Gilad Shalit Abbas and Olmert met in Jordan to continue talks. So it is the ARABS who destroy any chance of peace.

    You’re views are predictable and dangerous. Abbas does not represent the Palestinian people. Recall Fatah lost in a landslide DEMOCRATIC election to HAMAS. The truth of the matter is that Israel does not want to have an “Islamic” Palestine. This is Ironic, since Israel allowed HAMAS to grow over the years to create competition to Arafat and Fatah. Now, they have no choice but negotiate with them indirectly, as the 3 articles clearly indicate or directly.

    But why do I expect Arabs to take responsibility for their actions?

    This above last comment only reflects your biased one sided view of the conflict and ignorance. I suggest you go read up on your history and political science ; )

    It’s rather simple: no justice = no peace

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  5. Concerning Israel being a democracy:

    That is totally deluded and erroneous. Why? Because Israel treats the Arab minority, who are citizens and make up 20% of the population, as second class citizens. In other words, Israel does not accord its Arab-Israeli citizens the same rights as they do to their Jewish-Israeli majority despite having an""Equal Opportunities"" law, which is empty.

    It would be more fitting to describe Israel as a modern apartheid state. Need I give you examples teapot?

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  6. nassim, please give some examples

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  7. Teapot1:07 PM

    Nassim, I'll try and make it clear.
    you wrote "it seems that the Olmert government decided to go to “war” with Hizb Allah to hinder this new peace initiative"

    1. It was Hamas who kidnapped the soldier (it took them 6 month to build that tunnel, a long time before Olmert was elected.)

    2. It was Hezbollah which decided to attack Israel. (the first attack included not only the captured soldiers, but also shooting rockets at different villages).

    3. Abbas is THE ELECTED president of the Pals.

    4. 242 calls for "withdrawal of Israeli armed forces from territories occupied" (not ALL territories) Israel pulled out of Gaza. The Pals instead of building a state shoot rockets at Israel.

    5. "All they want are their family members, friends, and compatriots who were abducted by the IDF and are rotting in Israeli jails, in addition to the return of the Shebba farms."
    Samir Kuntar was not abducted from Lebanon, He was captured inside Israel while "murdering two Israeli civilians (a twenty eight year-old man and his four year-old daughter) and killing two Israeli policemen" (from wiki).

    It seems strange to me that the Sheba Farms are worth 5 billion dollars to lebanon and 1000 dead. Israel did not go to war to keep the Sheba Farms. It went to war to destroy the arsenal Hezbollah has.

    6. "I see no problem with Hizb Allah obtaining them since America supplies Israel with weapons of mass destruction"
    It is WRONG for an organisation which is not controlled by the Gov to act from its borders. Arabs cannot hide behind "organisations"

    7. Arabs in Israel have more freedom than any Arab country !(yes, including lebanon where Arabs are controlled by Nasrallah - who kills elected Prime Ministers he does not like and controls S.Lebanon).

    8. The pals can have a state if they realize Israel in not going away. You should ask yourself why Lebanon is not free of Iran.

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  8. Teapot, you don't even know about the daily deaths of palestinian civillians in the occupied territories by the IDF or the abduction of lebanese citizens from the south of lebanon from their homes since 1978 till the year 2000 by the Shin Bet and other Israeli bodies of terror. Hence, this conflict did not start only a month ago in isolation of the past. I am not a sympathizer of any group which advocates the use of violence to solve their problems. And note, all of the actions of Israel over just prior to it's recent re-existence (1948) until now have a cumulative effect on the people it wrongs, and it is called Islamic Jihad, Hizballa and Osama Bin Laden. A very simple law illustrates what I am saying: an action with a reaction.
    So don't make Israel seem like it is an angel relative to it's current foes. Israel must take responsibility for the actions it committed against the Lebanese people and the palestinians. Frankly, all the parties in this conflict are worse than each other.

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  9. Teapot2:29 PM

    Kronos, it was Nassim that claimed this war is about Lebanese "rotting in Israeli jails, in addition to the return of the Sheba farms."
    So, it is not about Palestinians.
    The Israeli-Lebanese conflict ended when Israel pulled out of Lebanon, even the UN confirmed this.
    I know more than u about this conflict. I know that the deal between Israel and Hezbollah (of 2004) was that Samir Kuntar would be exchanged for info on Ron Arad.
    It was Nasrallah who broke this deal.
    "Israel must take responsibility for its actions." ??? There is no armed NGO operating from Israel and attacking other countries.
    "Frankly, all the parties in this conflict are worse than each other." - what a shallow response.
    Nassim claimed that Olmert went to war to stop a peace process, I proved this claim to be false.
    If people just stick to realty we could all have a tea party in Lebanon.

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  10. Teapot, my comment was a response to your first comment(top of the page), and not to what followed between you and Nassim. It probably did not seem so at the time, since your response to Nassim was not up yet. Anyways, my original comment still stands: this conflict between Hizballa and Israel did not start about a month ago with the abduction of the israeli soldiers, rather it is much older and began since the first Israeli entrance into lebanon in 1978(Operation Litani) . Since then, Israel, has been terrorizing the population of the south, placing civillians under arrest in prisons such as Anasar in the town of Ansar east of Sidon, and also in a more recent detention center that was run by Israel's proxy in lebanon-SLA=South Lebanon Army- is the infamous Al Khiam. For this reason Israel has yet to take responsibility of it's actions in Lebanon with respect to the people of southern lebanon. Also, it's actions against the lebanese people in it's 1982 invasion of Lebanon where, the IDF killed tens of thousands of innocent lebanese civillians in Beirut alone using it's "surgical precision" bombing. Also, the dealings of the Israeli government with the Palestinians on the level of it's settler colonization program of the West Bank alone renders the Israeli govenrment guilty of Ethnic cleansing. Please see the documentary titled "Peace, Propaganda, and the Promised Land" if you want to know more about this topic.
    So, my point is that following your logic, and given the above, what would any civilian in the south of Lebanon and Palestinian in the occupied territories do if they are under continuous Israeli aggression and no one to defend them. Do they just sit down and have a tea party???? Rationally/Instinctively, they would become militant.
    Unfortunatley for the Lebanese who cannot unite under one banner, this led to the invitation of the Syrian and Iranian, and Israeli spheres of influence which will plague this nation for years to come.

    And, Israel has not yet withdrawn fully from ALL lebanese territories yet even if the UN does not express this, it still does not mean that it is necessarily true. The Israeli governement actually believes that the Farms are genuinely lebanese. If you look up what Akiva Eldar wrote about in the Haaretz on July 29, 2002, he/she follows up on a delegation from Israel to discover the ownership of the Farms. The Title is " Too Late for their own good." The conclusions of the article are
    1. that the farms where mistakenly drawn on the map which represtend it as part of the Syrian territory, and
    2.Israel will not return the farms back to Lebanon as the government has the belief that Hizballa might find another excuse to retain it's weapons.

    I will make this article by Eldar available in a post to come soon. And if you honestly believe that the israeli lebanese conflict ended in the year 2000, then your living in bubble where u and your imagination are in a constant state of tea partying.

    Finally, your just a shallow soul who knows nothing of this conflict. All of Hizballa, Israel, Syria, Iran are just worse than one another because the end result as it will always be is that Lebanon will be the battle ground for their wars.
    PS. Kuntar can rott in hell. Did u read any of the articles that Nassim Posted?

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  11. Teapot8:22 AM

    Kronos, I appreciate your replies, my final post on this issue, a quote from another blog "lebanesebloggers":
    "You don't go beat up on someone a hundred times your size, and then cry "wawa" when the guy finally turns around and beats the crap out of you! Oooh... "made in the USA!"

    Duh!!!"

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  12. Teapot, This quote is so misleading and has nothing to do with the conflict at all for the following reason:

    Israel started attacking Lebanese civilians since 1978. Israel uses U.S made weapons to attack these populations too. By appealing to the logic of the quote used in your last comment, the only conclusion that can arise is that none of the Lebanese should defend themselves, which is preposterous. To elucidate further, do read my last comment to you very carefully.

    On another note, you have not raised any discussions on any of the points I have made against your first comment, and only announced that this will be your last post; and to actually do that by ending it with such a silly quote too, renders you unworthy of any further discussion, and sadly, not even a tea party.

    What a silly person you are.

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  13. I don't know why you let this Jew keep posting. His teapot is filled with the polluted waters of Lebanon's coasts.
    The UN does not decide the borders of Lebanon or any other Arab country.
    As Kronos wrote "Israel started attacking Lebanese civilians since 1978" for no reason. Lebanon has the every right to revenge.
    Only the Jew cares about the cost of this, there is no price on this holy act.

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  14. Anonymous12:26 PM

    I am sorry to say, that if this are the "modearate" arabs, than unfortunatlly, we are not going to have peace for a long long time.
    someone here said that israel is not an angel. well, maybe israel is not an angel, but so is not lebanon, or probebly no other country in the world. I find the comprision to hizballa outraging , since hizballa is realy an organization that is trying to provoke war and vielonce, to promote is own fascist islamic agenda.
    what I read here is a dehumanizition of israel. israel is "evil", agrresive, criminal. when you are dehuminzing israel you are also dehumnizing it's citizents, since the country is a represnetive of it's citizens, especally in a democratic country. as long as you will continue to picture israel like this there will be no peace, since you do'nt make peace with the devil.

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  15. Sumud, Mr. Aonymous and the audience, This blog is to promote HEALTHY discussions on the topics we post. Anyone can post a comment on the various topics, and we do not discriminate against religion and race and sex. All are welcome. Yes, Israel has been attacking Lebanese civilians since 1978. The manifestations of the matter on the ground today are not out of revenge. Lebanon, and so does Palesine, and Israel will all want peace at some point in the very long run. The big question is under what cicumstances. I believe that, if Israel keeps on running it's programs of Settler Colonization of the West Bank, and does not give the Palestinians a VIABLE INDEPENDENT state, and I want to make this clear: Ehud Barak did not give the palestinians anything better than a big prison for an "independent" state at the Camp David negotiations back in the day; With respect to Lebanon and the Lebanese, we will not be beaten into submission into any peace deal by any nation. And by beaten, I mean threatened by the IDF' war machine, and the destruction it caused in lebanon since 1978 or the terrorizing of the lebanese pupolace by the Syrian Undercover police by using their gestapo tactics during their occupation of lebanon. These acts only refelct how extreme the Israeli and the Syrian governments actually are, and will cause many moderate arabs to shun Israel and Syria. And as Arabs, we cannot stereotype that all Jews are Zionists and evil it is erroneous and unfair. This will only prolong the conflict, and transitively, the suffering of the innocent on both sides of the conflict. Their are many Jews outside and inside Israel today who are moderates, and do not support the Ethnic Cleansing of the palestinians in the occupied territories and the ISraeli aggession in Lebanon. For more info on this topic, please watch the documentary titled " Peace, Propaganda, and the Promised Land." For this reason, Mr. Anonymous we know that one day a better, and more moderate Israel will come,and with it a more moderate Syria too.

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  16. Mr Anonymous, Hizballa was created since the lebanese governemtnat the time could not defend it's own people living in the south who were subjected to Israeli aggression since 1978. To put as clearly as possible as to what happened, I will construct it for you ina very simplified matter: suppose i am Israel in 1978, and you are the Lebanese of the South, and that Sumud is palestinian fighters operating from southern lebanon against me. If I invade Lebanon and evict Sumud, and simultaneously I abduct, imprison and terrorize you; and no one can come to your aid and defend you. What becomes of you? Instinctively i think, you become militant and try to defend yourself. This is a very accurate account of what happened in Lebanon.

    Now, how else do u want us to picture Israel with respect to it's achievments in LEbanon?

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  17. Beyond the Propaganda7:29 PM

    I find the commentary of Teapot to be simplistic at best, and based, for the most part, upon ignorance of the issues involved in Israel's war against Lebanon.

    I appreciate Kronos pointing out that the Israeli government and IDF engage in acts of brutalism on a daily basis in their occupation of Palestinian territory. Unfortunately, the mainstream media in the West, through omission and distortion of fact, misrepresent the nature of the Israeli occupation, and now of the war with Lebanon. The idea of Israel as a benevolent democracy is a soothing myth, as is the depiction of the USA as a beneficient superpower. Simply by virtue of their immense military strength, USA and Israel are among the most dangerous terrorist nations in the world.

    A few points to consider: The insistence by the Israeli government that its' wholesale slaughter of Lebanese civilians is the result of Hizbollah placing its artillery positions among civilian populations is demonstrably false: see Norman Finkelstein, Salon.com et al for more info.

    Amnesty International and B Tselem, two highly respected international human rights groups, have accused Israel of war-crimes.
    Such charges cannot be silenced as is so often the case by hurling counter accusations of "Anti Semitism."

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